How to Be a Great Manager

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Hi, Terri.

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Hello, Jeremy. How are you?

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I'm great.

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So-- It's a personal opinion. No one else shares it.

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Exactly.

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What a dumb thing to say.

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And yet you've said it thousands of times. Yes.

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(Laughter)

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There are a handful for our listeners. There are a handful of lines that Jeremy uses repeatedly. And that one is near the top of the list.

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Exactly.

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All right. So today we thought we would talk about managers. And we sort of have in our mind maybe above supervisor and lower than executive team. But that's not really important. It really could be anybody who's managing. Because we've worked over the years with thousands and thousands of managers.

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And of course, like every other group of humanity, they range from incredibly impressive and great to not so much.

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But we do feel like there is this view-- and this is sort of maybe an elephant in the boardroom-- that managers get in the way of making a company as good as it could be. Even though they're working incredibly hard, and lots of them are super smart and knowledgeable. So we were going to talk today about some of the traits that could improve how managers manage from the point of view of the company. So would you like to start?

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Sure. I'll say a word or two more about why we're doing this.

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You have often brought up lately-- for some reason it keeps coming up-- that the term

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middle. And we actually tried to find the origin of it. And we couldn't definitively--

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AI failed us greatly,

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which we know is not the source of truth anyway. But

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do get a very bad

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of holding things back.

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And there's a number of reasons we think that occurs. And one of the things that happens that really is bad

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people who are good at their job.

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So let's take banking as an example. If you are a good wholesale banker, and you've brought in a lot of business, and you get your loans approved, and you do your job well, the path for

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career is to then become a manager.

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Well, you might not be suited for management at all. You might not have any of the traits we're about to-- well, you've got to have some of the traits we're about to talk about. But it may not be

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suited to you. You might not even really want it. But you know you want to keep moving up the ladder. And to do that, you have to manage.

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that's silly. And at least some companies have gotten around this by making paths for people. For example, Google. You don't have to-- you can move up the ladder, be extremely successful, and be a technical person the entire time and not manage people, which seems very smart to me.

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So the first trait we will talk about is what we call one company thinking. So many of our projects, the names have been one fill in the company name, because this is a problem everywhere. Where in large companies,

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divisions go even smaller than what you might think of a division, which I don't know, a unit, a group, everybody labels them differently. But small segments of companies act in their own best interests and driven maybe by the managers, probably by the managers.

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Because that is sort of their mandate. At least that's how they see their mandate.

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I have a budget to meet. I have goals to meet. I have a task.

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And whether or not that is great for the company is not really that relevant to me.

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And I'm not compensated that way, most likely. I'm not rewarded in any way. Not compensation, not in my salary, not in my bonus, not in my promotability. None of that really factors in. So I'm sort of smartly making decisions based on my own little group. But obviously, the company wouldn't really want that.

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So we think having a one company attitude

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very important for a manager. But it's on the company to make sure that that happens, because that's what makes the manager succeed.

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Walter Isaacson said in his biography of Steve Jobs, think about divisions. Even the word is ominous.

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A contributor to not having a one company attitude is a lot of people, as they go up the ladder, have pretty strong egos.

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And I hope there's nothing particularly wrong with having a strong ego, a big ego.

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You like to poke fun at yourself there. You actually keep that ego quite in check, sir. Oh, OK. Phew.

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But there are managers who want to tout their accomplishments, want to be credited with the accomplishments of others and themselves. And so they bring their ego into every meeting or every decision. And one of the things we've noticed is that the managers who leave their ego at the door

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are

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ones who most readily adopt this one company attitude. So we knew one of the best managers we've ever worked with, Tim Shaq, who is at PNC,

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he had the chance to

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not-- He wasn't in the middle, though, just for--

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Oh, he was certainly not in the middle.

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He's listening, and he thinks we're saying he was in the middle. He was at the top.

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He was at the tippy tippy top in responsibility and capability. And he was given the option to not have his area included in a company-wide project, one that he was advocating for, because he had done so much already.

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And a lot of people with ego would have said, yeah, this isn't for me. I'm already the best. This is for all the rest of you bums out there.

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And Tim's view is just the opposite. No, we're all in this together. I'll just learn new ways to do more in my area. Maybe my area can contribute to what the rest of you are doing. And I want to be part of the team.

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And if it exposes things that I'm not doing as well, we could be great, because then we'll fix them and we'll all be better off. So it's hard, but leaving-- it's particularly hard in a corporate environment, but leaving your ego at the door

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is really important. And I should have said one other thing,

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not only for collaborating with peers,

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but making sure that your people get the credit they deserve for having made you look good.

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I was going to say that this is one of our tenants with our own team when we're working with clients, is that we leave our egos. We require our team to leave their egos at the door, because it is about making

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client the heroes in our projects, because they are the heroes. They're the ones coming up with the ideas and implementing them.

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So yeah, we walk the walk. We walk that talk.

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And there is sort of a cost to it, because when I was at McKinsey, well, we got credit for all the ideas.

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We also got blamed for them, but we got the credit for all these smart ideas that usually came from the employees anyway.

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Whereas when we leave our-- and our team leaves the ego at the door, and the employees are coming up with all these great ideas that senior management is approving and liking, they're getting the credit. That means we're not. But that's OK with us. The long-term benefit of that is high.

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And it would absolutely tell the world

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the children-- the ages of my children, because when you said we're all in this together, I immediately started singing the song from High School Musical in my head.

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OK.

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OK, so another trait that we think is extremely important is having empathy.

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Now, this is obviously an important trait to be a human being.

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But managers in particular really need to

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themselves in their teams' shoes

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so that they are making good decisions about

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that affect their employees. So for example,

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we knew a call center manager-- well, we've known gobs of call center managers, but call center managers who was getting

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beat up a bit from above because his team wasn't making certain goals. And

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without empathy might say, all right, team, just work harder.

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And apparently, there's some ugly rumors about, for example, Amazon, which doesn't allow pee breaks. I think those are apocryphal and not true from what I've heard. But anyway.

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And instead, this manager did some analysis. I was like, OK, well, our call rate is way up. And there was a couple of particular problems that was driving those calls. And so went back to his boss, explained the situation, got some extra resources, and got the ball rolling on fixing the problems. So there's that kind of

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empathy, which actually goes pretty much hand in hand with

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which maybe I'll just throw in there now,

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which is to advocate for your team. So there's empathy like, you know what? Yes, of course, you can

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now because your school just called and your child is sick.

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But then there's the advocating for your team to make sure that they have the resources that they need to do their jobs properly.

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Some people do this very naturally. But I would say in the corporate environment, most don't. And that is to check in with the people you're working with to say, you know,

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there stresses you're under that we could do something about? Maybe we can't, but let me know. Don't just sit there at 8 o'clock at night when office that's empty, bitter about the fact that you were asked to do something that it turns out, you know what? It's not that important to do or.

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About those TPS reports. About those TPS. I'm going to need you to come in this weekend.

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Yeah.

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We had kind of, I won't say the name in this case, but a senior executive who called his entire team in on a Saturday morning at nine o'clock and he did not show up till 10 30. And they were sitting around his conference room. Fuming.

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Fuming. But that's an extreme. Rightfully so. So the next thing,

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and Terri, you started kind of with this, but this idea of being a subject matter expert. There are some managers.

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Oh my God, I'm forgetting his name. He was a McKinsey partner and he became CEO of RJR Reynolds. He became CEO of IBM and he was CEO of American express. Um,

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Oh my Lord.

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Anyway, it doesn't matter.

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It doesn't matter. He obviously did not build his career on subject matter expertise. He built it on being a very, very general kind of leader and manager and extraordinary and extraordinary one. But there's a lot of people who are great subject matter experts and the institution should not burden them with other things and distract them from that because being able to have,

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being able to teach, but, but what they should burden those managers with is are you showing your team, are you teaching your team, not just ripping a problem away from them and solving it with a huff, but.

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Getting that subject matter expertise distributed to more and more people that you have,

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I think we would argue that at the top of the house,

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maybe subject matter expertise is a little less important than, than in the,

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middle,

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because the top of the house, well, you know, if you've built the team properly, you have tons of subject matter experts at your disposal. Um, but you know, when you're in the middle,

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unless you are extraordinary at leadership, uh, subject matter expertise is probably part of, of your role because that's what your, your team is coming to you for now. There are exceptions, of course. So again, at Google, uh, apparently you have a, if you're a software engineer, you might have a manager, but you also have a, uh, I think they call it a tech lead who is truly the subject matter expert. I mean, your managers are likely to, but there is someone else designated who's not managing you, who is the tech lead.

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In fact, we don't see this very often, but at the top of the house, you would actually like people to rotate around so that what they become is an expert in the company, how the different functions work, how they impinge on each other and on the customer base that you're not familiar with and, uh, the talent that exists in the company that you're not aware of. So the higher up you go, the more you would like expertise in that to be developed, but people don't do that very often, which is one reason that a lot of these divisions end up occurring.

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Yeah. It's super useful for, for example, the head of ops to face a customer once in a while, uh, or maybe more than once in a while regularly, part of the sales process, because who, you know, can, can answer and explain things maybe on the, in from the back room side, then that, than that person. Um, so it does make a lot of sense.

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And it can make that ops guy care or person care more about a problem because they're not just hearing complaints from the sales team. They're actually hearing it from customers.

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Yeah. Yeah. So I had a, uh, in my banking days, um, it just went both directions, but I remember once very, very, um, being very surprised that the, um, senior credit officer would not,

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re basically refuse to meet a client because you know, you didn't want to make a credit decision based on the fact that you like somebody. Um, so that's an exception to the rule, but in general, and, you know, so is it good for, um,

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the, the head of HR? I mean, is it just the head of HR need to know the ins and outs of the operations of the business?

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No, not really, but yeah, all that cross pollenization, pollination, pollen.

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Pollination.

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Pollination.

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Um, this is really useful. It makes everybody stronger. And I think in sometimes maybe it doesn't happen because it makes the person more marketable and if you're afraid of that, then you maybe don't encourage it, but you shouldn't be.

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And if the head of HR does know a lot about operations or whatever, and now they're thinking about turnover issues or recruiting issues, they have a much better feel for the situation that's driving the turnover or could be used to recruit or is hampering recruiting.

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Again, kind of like empathy. This is important for life in general, but a manager really needs to be able to communicate well. It is very hard to do the job of a manager if you can't communicate up down sideways, all directions.

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And one of the hardest things probably to communicate is the problems that you have to talk about. So,

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constructive criticism, feedback for your employees who deserve it. Right? I mean, I don't mean pick and choose who deserves it, but your, your team deserves to not just hear everything's great if it's not. So it's super hard to deliver that kind of news sometimes for some people it is, for most people it is.

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But that's really important if you want to help your people grow, but also to deliver

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news that might be bad to your own boss, you have to be able to communicate it and know when to communicate it.

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a

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very

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delicate balance sometimes for the middle, the concrete middle, which we don't think is that concrete,

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know what they can share, what they can't share,

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is generally driven by the top. But obviously the more open and transparent you can be, if you're allowed, you should do it because it helps people do their jobs, makes them feel connected to the company and communication is really, is really hard. We recommend, of course, more talk, less email.

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Yep.

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That walking around thing. I mean, you were saying, you know, ask people, we actually, and maybe we can, maybe we can, we can offer this to people. So send us, go on to harvestearnings.com and ask for us. We have a card that we printed specifically for the top of the house, but it would apply to manager, middle managers as well. Sort of the questions you should ask when you're walking around talking to your team, you know, when you're in the hallway, in the cafeteria or wherever on a Zoom call now, I guess, or a Teams call. You know, but you cannot, um, you could probably, it's very difficult to communicate too much unless you're telling secrets.

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So let me say one other thing about communications and this isn't something you can do all the time, but it kind of ties together, have a one company attitude, leave ego at the door and subject matter expertise,

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which is.

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Often managers, for example, may not communicate to their bosses, uh,

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particularly well, because they don't really have the deep understanding to be able to respond and never should could ever will have it and shouldn't have it. To be able to respond to sort of an interrogation, let's say, of that digs deeper into the problem. But if you bring into the room, you know, your four subordinates who are experts and you let them talk freely to the boss and have a back and forth with the boss.

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The richness of that communication, the accuracy of it will be much higher. And yes, that someone may say something you kind of wish they hadn't quite said that way. But in exchange, you get a richer, better understanding.

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Yeah, but definitely don't only do that with bad news because that could be perceived as throwing the, uh, not all Christian to the lions.

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Yeah.

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Under throwing someone under the bus.

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I know you didn't mean that.

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I was just, no, no, I mean, you know, you're coming in to advocate for some new big investment, for example.

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Okay. So the next one we want to talk about, I'm going to throw to you in a second, but, um, I just want to say that,

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well, the next one is, uh, problem solving ability

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and honestly, it is in, in my mind, by far the most important quality, because almost everything else we've talked about.

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Could be considered solving a problem, giving constructive criticism, acting as one company, your, those are all, you know, you're solving problems.

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again, it's a really difficult thing to do and people don't get promoted necessarily based on their ability to do it, but there you go. What do you have to say about problem solving? Jeremy?

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Well,

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it's a problem that needs to be solved. So on the one hand, of course, particularly in large companies, uh, well, I actually all size companies, there's tremendous problem solving capabilities. I mean, these companies are complex. They, they serve many customers. They manage many processes. So it's not that problem solving doesn't exist. It exists a lot. But it can also be vastly improved.

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And there's kind of two ends of the spectrum. There's the problem solving of putting out a fire. Someone comes to you, they have an angry customer. How should they handle the situation in the moment?

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Uh, and managers spend a lot of time on that kind of short term,

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putting out the fire problem solving and many get quite adept at it. The harder one is having the time and the will, uh, and the imagination and the skills to step back and say, well, what caused that angry customer in the first place, are we doing something systemic?

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And not building it so much up in their mind that, oh, yes, this would get solved. If we had a three year multimillion dollar new automation project, but rather how can I practically and quickly get experts around the company who could help us identify the problem? That's the biggest problem. That's the hardest problem actually of problems is figuring out what the actual problem is to be solved is, and then solving it. And that is work that people don't really get training on. They don't really get highlighted for being good at, uh, they don't get a lot of practice in, they don't get coaching for.

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And so nonsense

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up with which I shall not put. Exactly.

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We do not end sentences with a proposition here at harvest earnings.

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Except when we want to.

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Exactly. So, uh, figuring out how to provide more support to bolster problem solving. And what's amazing is,

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a 5%, 7%, for example,

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improvement, reduction in expenses to generate the same amount of revenue has this fantastically enormous impact, generally speaking on earnings. Uh,

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and those that 5, 7% is often made up of problems, which in fact, managers with the right support, uh, and the right room in space and whatever could can solve.

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Um, so this isn't just an airy, fairy, you know, problem solving.

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No, no, it is not. I am reminded of, uh, one of my main frustrations when I was back in my

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banking days again, I don't know why I'm talking about banking so much. It was 25 years ago when I was, uh, getting calls from angry, angry customers cause they had closed out accounts. They kept,

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reopening and getting statements. And, you know, these were people who were still customers.

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you know, had multiple accounts and, and

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of other operational errors back at that time. But that one was just craziness. Cause we knew like, you know, I'd go to my assistant and I know I closed that account. Okay. And so I went in, uh, to my boss and said, this is making, I can't, I can't keep working here if we can't get operations straight, it's, it's, it's crazy. It's not fun. You know, when you're on the front line and you're getting all these calls from people thinking you're either incompetent or an idiot or whatever.

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And, uh, he said, all right, well, you know, in my name, form a committee and figure out what the heck's going on and fix this stuff.

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And we did. And, and the particular thing about the account not closing was there was some flag deep in the, you know, old system that said, do not close on zero balance. And even with the attempt to close, you know, a manual, it wasn't manually overwriting that little flag buried deep, but

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well, I wish you were at UBS right now.

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I cannot get my account.

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Yeah.

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I keep getting these statements, zero dollar statements. I finally talked to some tech guy and he agreed and he fixed it. And then the next month, I don't know. There's zero other balance show up.

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It's crazy that it is happening to you now.

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Yeah.

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25 years plus after I fixed it.

[01:26:41:22 - 01:26:46:07]

They need you at UBS. I'm telling you.

[01:26:46:07 - 01:26:47:07]

Yeah.

[01:26:47:07 - 01:26:54:00]

We, um, but a great example of a manager doing something practical and smart your boss in this case.

[01:26:54:00 - 01:27:05:21]

Yeah. Well, he, yes. I mean, I solved the problem. He, he, he, he empathized and he advocated for the, the resources to get it done.

[01:27:05:21 - 01:27:12:15]

And gave you the space and gave you actually the, uh, you know, I don't know what it not permission, but.

[01:27:12:15 - 01:27:40:16]

Yeah. Well permission because, you know, I, I couldn't have formed that cross company team on my own exactly. I mean, I guess I kind of could have, but using his name, I mean, you know, people snapped too sometime, uh, soon. Maybe we'll talk about gaffes that make us laugh because this UBS thing reminds me. We've had some humdingers lately.

[01:27:41:18 - 01:27:47:14]

We have to, um, death related, but we'll save those for an.

[01:27:47:14 - 01:27:48:14]

Oh, right.

[01:27:51:00 - 01:27:52:19]

Right. Ah, those are always funny.

[01:27:54:05 - 01:27:54:20]

Yeah, exactly.

[01:27:54:20 - 01:27:55:23]

All right.

[01:27:55:23 - 01:27:56:18]

Well, that note.

[01:27:56:18 - 01:28:00:01]

Yeah. Go, go be good. Uh, go be good managers.

[01:28:00:01 - 01:28:18:19]

Go be good managers. All right. Talk to you later back to work. Thanks for listening to learn how harvest earnings helps large companies overcome the bad practices. Visit our website, harvest earnings.com or email us at info at harvest earnings.com.

[01:28:18:19 - 01:28:29:15]

Also, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're feeling generous, leave us a rating and a review. It really helps others discover the show until next time. I'm Terri long

[01:28:29:15 - 01:28:33:22]

and I'm Jeremy Eden. And now it's time for us to get back to work. Bye.